Awkward discussion.

An issue that has popped up a couple of times is people on the race track flying at a high angle and being unable to dip sufficiently to pass without making other riders change their riding line. I guess this is what we get when we run races with guys standing up, sitting down, experienced , rookies and some guys just using silly sized kites and hanging on for their lives. personally I wouldn't want to see a situation where we have to segregate or decree things or have 5 marshals on the track throwing around penalties.

We need to work this out. Some sensible suggestions would be appreciated.

yeah i think splitting up the racing would be a shame. if numbers increase to constantly more the 10 then segregation i guess needs to be considered.

I think its great that there is a mix of riders from the hardcore racer with the world fastest race kite and decked out specialist buggy to an unhooked rider on a standard bug to doom wheels. It makes for interesting racing.

Couple of points i'd like to make.

At the nut buster and the bbbb i think the biggest problem was running the race too late in the day/tide and running out of beach width. On both events had we raced 30 mins before low tide we would have enjoyed 30-50 meters more beach width and therefore have alot more room for riders to get around each other. At the BBBB the beach shrunk dramatically and there was only 20ish meters of hard/fast sand width for 9 riders to pass each other on.

The next point is that there has been no defined rules for passing in which ever direction. I think all that is required is a simple rule like. " wind on your right shoulder stay up wind, wind on your left shoulder go down wind to give way"

There was a point in the bbbb race were i had 3 buggeriers about 5m apart (side ways) all hammering towards me. None of them gave me any room to get past and I had no place to go. I almost pulled out of the race because it was getting dangerous on that thin beach. I ended up sacrificing abit of speed and riding up in the water to stay out of the way and get some clear space.

Had we had a defined rule about passing then it would have made the race alot safer.

Lastly I always run my own rule at the mark that the guy rounding the mark first has right of way. I get my kite out of the way of that guys kite. Since most kite tangles happen at the mark. perhaps defining a rule here is also worthwhile.

i second the running out of beach thing, the hard sand got down to quite a narrow strip with the soft being really slow.

it think we should be look at international rules any away in case ppl want to race over seas it would help if ppl knew then better.

on the other hand if we get someone from over seas riding here, nz riders would have the advantage if we have are own rules (a big free for all)

may be a marker or two, in the middle of the track to keep down wind traffic clear of up wind traffic, on spots the course is narrow.

this is from the uk Parakart Association most ppl may have read it i think its a good time to adopt it or at least the basics






""If you are on a head-on collision course turn right and the other pilot should do the same. In all other situations, watch for pilots coming from your right and avoid them. Pilots coming from your left will avoid you, so don't confuse them by changing course.

You may overtake on the right or left but it is your responsibility to avoid a collision with the overtaken pilot.

Wind direction makes no difference to these rules. For old-timers, the starboard rule no longer applies, but as a matter of interest if both pilots are beating (going upwind, a common situation), the new ‘guard your right' rule is exactly the same.

There is a grey area between overtaking and converging. I guess you are overtaking if you are going faster and your angle of approach is more from behind than from the right. Use your common sense and be careful if it looks borderline.

In some situations you must make a conscious effort to look right because it isn't natural; for example when the wind is coming from your right.

Kite Height

The upwind buggy must fly high and the downwind buggy must fly low. This is really just common sense. If you don't do it you will tangle.

The kite height rule is nothing to do with buggy priority; you must never use your kite to block anyone. Kite height rules apply whenever you are close enough to tangle with another kite. It is the responsibility of both pilots to comply. In the event of a tangle the pilot who's kite was at an unreasonable height is at fault. If you can't control your kite properly, you shouldn't be flying it.

Opposing:

Things happen quickly as bunches of buggies are opposing at a closing speed of 60 mph (a situation that often arises during slalom races). First pick a gap on the ground for your buggy using the priority rules. It's often a good idea to look behind you. If the rest of your bunch is going for a different gap, will the 'weave' work? Having picked a buggy gap, look for the corresponding kite gap and get your kite to the right altitude to slot it through.

Overtaking:

You must raise and lower whether you are overtaking or being overtaken.

At a mark:

If there's a line of pilots jibing (turning) a mark, the leaders will be downwind of the followers after the mark. Therefore kites must come in high and go out low. Down turns are often most effective.

Equipment

Wear a helmet.

Lines:

Don’t use Kevlar or similar abrasive lines. Length, from handles to back of kites no more than 60m.

Harness:

You must be able to release your kite in case of emergency. Open hook (windsurf harness) or a quick release system is considered OK. A strap around your back isn’t.

Buggies

Upper limits 3m wide, 3.5m long, 26 inch wheels, 20 kg extra weights and no sharp edges like in Ben Hur.

Display your number:

You should have at least 3 numbers with digits 14 cms high, 2 cms stripe in black on a white background. One should be visible from the back, and one on each side.

Racing

If there is a pilot's meeting you must attend. There may be important information about safety, exclusion zones and race layout. You may be disqualified for not attending.

The start is a 'rolling start', and is announced by flags and noises at 5 minutes, 2 minutes and 1 minute, 30 seconds, then a 10 second countdown. Try to cross the start line at reasonable speed at zero. It helps to have a watch.

Races are usually triangular, so you have to sail in a variety of directions. Hint: going down-wind is worth practicing.

You must not touch the marks.

You can change equipment in the race, but only off the course.

It’s an individual sport. Assistance during a race is not allowed unless it is for safety reasons.

After a set period of time (usually about 20 minutes), when the leader crosses the finish line, the chequered flag comes out. All races finish when they pass the chequered flag.

Race Scoring:

First place in a race gets 0 points, 2nd gets 2, 3rd gets 3 etc. At the end of a series you add up all your points and the lowest score wins. Penalty points may be added if you have been naughty in races. In a series there are usually some discards. So in a 10 race series only 8 Scores might count and your worst 2 would be discarded.

There are other twiddly bits for when the scores are identical

Download the PKA Pilot's Handbook (Blue Book)

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Here's spme rules i just googled

www.tractionkiting.co.uk/information/inf...9-buggy-racing-flags

These seem fairly easy to understand and valid.

* Ifyou are in a head on collision course BREAK RIGHT! (as in turn to your right)
* You may overtake on the left or the right but it is YOUR responsibility to avoid collision.
* Kite height
The upwind pilot must fly high
The downwind pilot must fly low

*YOU MUST NEVER USE YOUR KITE TO BLOCK ANOTHER PILOT
*When overtaking you must raise or lower your kite accordingly
the overtaken pilot need not alter their kite position
but must NOT move their kite to impede the overtaking pilot.
*At a mark there will be a line of pilots turning a mark, the leaders will be downwind of the followers after the mark, so kites must come in high and go out low. (this applies at a down wind turn but at an upwind turn the reverse is generally the case except for the last few yards as some pilots prepare to do a tack turn)

The upwind pilot must fly high
The downwind pilot must fly low

That sounds simple. Most people know that. Trouble is it is not happening. I keep hearing about power poles and mobile chicanes.


* Ifyou are in a head on collision course BREAK RIGHT! (as in turn to your right
Sensible. The upwind kite goes high and the downwind goes low.

These rules are based on the premise that the rider can fly their kite up and down at will. Some guys don't seem to be able to do that due to the nature of their rig.

At least if the rules are clear then you have an idea of what to do. When they are not clear then you do what you think is best. At one point i stoped and parked the kite at the zenith as there was no clear way through the mad throng of buggies coming towards me. Had there been a turn right rule all would have been clear.

but it is true the doom wheels, landboard and buggy run different kites and different kite positions. Doom seems to be quite high. obviously the easier position for ballancing on the doomers. I'll up turn at the mark rather than down turn compared to the buggies. So different styles.

If your a tallented rider you should be able to weave through the madding crowd to take the win!

PS I'm not ragging on your organisation Charlie. No rules is sweet for most of the time. And the usual number of 5-6 racers there generally isn't a problem.

iv seen class8 landyatch racing rules posted on this here very forun, and not just once....and by and large the simple ones are adhered to (break right in a head on and upwind kite up) these are rules that i think we all know and DEFINENTLY need to be adering to...

issues i had

wanting to overtake someone on the same tack....we had issues here for 3 reasons,
no space to pass on the right, to close to the sea..
cant get past anyway because kite is to high and nowhere to go..
cant overtake on the left because of oncoming traffic....

all these problems are due to restricted space....mostly, kite to high problem is bad practice anyway, but in the knowlage that one has no room to overtake on the right because the sea is their is something to work on..
however i know i diddnt shout at anyone to let them know i was their, i dunno bout you lot....so i cant blame anyone if they dont know im even their trying to overtake..


if you decided to overtake the rider on the left (downwind) everything would have been sweet right?? mostly, ecept all the oncoming traffic you just put yourself in the middle of now has to abide by the rules and take evesive break right action , but due to restricted space again ,theyv got nowhere to go, because a car is parked in the way with a stack of kites attached!! not helpfull, and also softsand..

the soft sand is not something to take lightly either as a rider can use it to force a break right rule and slow a rider down, this is where marshals come in but our own sence of fair play should never be a problem..

it was a very small space to race in and highlighted issues that only really become issues when in a confined space, but it definently does show us that we all need to get a lot better at racing in confined spaces, because most of out beacher are just like that one.

picture this...your heading away from the start line, sea is on your right, your on the right hand side of the track....you stay their, nice and tight..righty tighty...
you round the mark and you going the other way, back to the start kite is now on your right, you stay right..
but we all know that, their just wasnt enuff space, get hit by a gust and the all of a sudden your in the middle of the other lane beause you drifted their, you cant stop that from happening, the other guys HAVE to break right..even if their almost in the soft!!
break right where??

This is all good stuff.

It is true that the last race was a bit rushed. The beach was disappearing and I kind of lined you all up and said go with out proper instructions. Thats all true. Sorry about that.



More input needed.

for me i think triangles are the way forwards, they have a bit of everthing without being complex and technical, and are safe as thers no overlapping of riders and crazy fullspeed passes throught the middle of a pack of buggys, i almost shit my pants during that race.and its dangerous, i think to be avoided from now on

the problem is ofcourse space, we could have run a bigfoot triangle course at the port that used some soft sand but that dosnt work for boarders and i doent think we should segrigate either, thats just a shame, ut if we can only race on a thin strip of sand because of it and its dangerous then we need to come up with something quite spectacular to avoid overlapping.

What about some passing lanes and we can paint a double orange line down the middle as well.

sorry that not really helping is it

Al comes up with many good points. i did yell at one bloke who was able to stop after the speed gate WAY faster than me , i yelled to stop a nasty leg breaking mainly .
the biggest issue for me was the angle of the different kites flying , all kites needed to be flying on their ears unless passing or turning then the issues would have been a bit less. The only other issue i had worth mentioning was when i was trying to catch up the leaders after a poor start, as i was barreling to the turn marks the other contenders had rounded and were coming back, i sat as down wind as possible and slid the buggy in low and then up over the top of the mark . Seeing me coming, many times i split the field high and low as some crossed over my path making for interesting kite positioning and giving me one option of down the middle. i think if there were two flags on the corners you had to be up wind of or down wind of then it would stop the quick tack in front of incoming buggies because the buggy would have to hold a line for a longer time out of the corner and do the fig 8 cross over further down the course instead of the concentration points (corners) . the lack of beach space has highlighted these issues which we can normally cope with so in future if we need to or not perhaps the two flag corner would be a good habit to get into. the overriding factor is we want to include everyone in the fun...

i like Al's basic course. good idea.

So race start just before low tide for ultimate beach width. basic course the means riders aren't barrelling towards each other at 50+kph.

Outline some simple rules at the start of the race.

Viola!

no need to apologize charlie, i appreciate the work you put in to it!

so planing the course a bit to suite the beach


another option on al's graphic is the diamond



i was just think what if we had the same track as the nuttbuster !! at the bbb.



THAT could have been interesting

nuttbuster went a bit like this (I think??)






would have been chaos with more ppl

all kites needed to be flying on their ears

That sounds interesting Jimmy

well the wind was cross on at the nut buster so a course that had a down wind run and tack back up was require.

it was a fun coarse, just not for high wind and lots of ppl



best part at the bbbb was watching Al ride off in to the sun set at the first mark!

I have an idea for the moose final feature race. Nuke the beach there and back!

That'l sort the men from the boys and the feild should be well split when any head on passing takes place! LOOOOTS of room! hehehahaha.

Or just nuke the beach one way. 50km drag race! Not sure how yourd get all the guys to the start maybe they have 2 hours to make their way up the beach first to get to the start!!!

Another idea for evening out the racing. essentially theres 2 groups racing. hardcore racers on big buggies and races kites. They obviously go fastest. Then anyone else. normal buggies, standard kites and standup dudes all seem to go a similar speed.

What about a course with a reduced mark for non race kite/big buggy guys? So if its a standard there and back course the big bug race kiters turn at say 1KM mark and the rest at 900m. If we set it up well then the fastest of the big bugs and everyone else would be rounding the start finish at similar times. Less lapping of slower guys and more competative racing.

Sort of an A) grade and a grade. Either selected by past performance or by equipment being used.

Perrin has publishe dhis race course for the moose. Check it out on his site.

Bout time you got a buggy Plummet. Then you can race in the front pack.

I believe the only real solution is to add an up wind turn (tack)to the coarse.
That way we can setup a track were we always keep the flags on the same side of the buggy and can avoid on-coming traffic.
We could make the upwind turn mark obvious by choosing multiple flags or a different colour
can the doom wheelers and landboarders cope with an upwind tack or is this unfair?
overtaking and avoiding collisions is tricky as there are a lot of variables.
What do you think of these rules?
the up wind rider with a low kite must try to lift the kite to pass or change course to pass underneath.
The down wind rider with a high kite must try to lower their kite or change course to pass over the top.
And you should always go into a corner with a high kite and exit low if there are riders just behind you.(no surprise loops of the kite)
and now for a pretty picture:

here is the picture

Looks like a good course. One way to find out. suck it and see! If the upwind tack points to high then everyone in the average crew will be doing a few tacks to get to the mark. But don't let that disaude you. Lets face it the rest of us (non race kiters) are in it for fun and a bit of a laugh. So set the course for the serious blokes.

Sorry Charlie i still can't justify a buggy. Its too big to secretly stash in my car and i wouldn't use it unless i was out of town. so a devise for 2 perhaps 3 times a year doesn't stack up. I'd be get better value for money with getting more kitesurfing gear... cough splutter. .... . . . . . . . . .

or how about this?

here is the course

Here is a pic of my latest mod to my hardwire - I hope this won't accidentally trigger as in my last two big races.

how about a self inflating pyramid with a built in sand bag for a race mark?

Thats what I like about our scene. Everybody has positive ideas and is keen on progression.

One point I would like to make is the issue with kite height is not restricted to head on courses. Gannet lapped the entire field at Port waikato. Lots of people got lapped. Passing peole seems like a bit of a trial when their kite is really high in the sky.

Keep it coming guys. Need more input.

5 simple principles of racing That cover giving way, kite passing, lapping slow riders, mark roundings and heavy traffic would be a good thing to have as well as a some simple protocols for running the races.

The zig zag courses that we had at the Moose and the nut buster were excelent. I was keen on doing a similar thing at the Blue balls but the tide to caught me out a bit. I could not find a tide chart and I calculted the time. The feature race was supposed to be about 15 minutes after low which would normally have given us a big beach for a couple of hours. In the end the tide changed a bit earlier than expected, rushed in and we ended up with a very thin race track.

kiteworks wrote:


this one would only be ok for buggies as if im not mistaken its 200m into the dunes , isnt it ?


"kites on ears " yes well, as low as possible during the straight might have been a better way to say it

i dont expect a moose race would have any issues BUT we could test some ideas before we need to use them .

Inflatable pyramids or cones would probably roll the buggy , as least the bendy shaft flags reset after a hit and dont cause an accident after an error, so i m still down with using bendy flags on all turn points.

We made 4 bendy flags but we could make more if need be ? they wernt perfect but they are pretty good at recovering after a hit and the orange colour stands out better than any other against ground/sky or water on any day which is why life rafts and road workers vests are this colour.

i like the idea of self inflatinmarkers. it would be one big batman sign as to where the mark is. Better yet. completly solid markers. boulders or massive drift wood. no options for cutting those bastards. go around or go home(via a short heilcopter flight to the hospital! hehehe...... . .. . . . ..... . .... ....

or giant stuffed moose markers with the antlers to catch kite line if you get to close

if i have to avoid anymore self inflating markers im taking conrads plank back and will beat them to death and poke them with sticks untill all the air comes out...and buggy over them.
the last self inflating marker i met wanted to eat my kite.

the only thing that really needs work is what to do if we have a small beach,
if its got plenty ofroom we wont have any problems, if we decide to run a standard oval then it should have some lane markers and possibly a larger turning radius at each mark to spread the turns out if we all can mannage them and do indeed have space, but a triangle track should fix the issue anyway.

im all for an upwind tack but i think this should be some kind of vote, i dont know who can do them and who cant so i would assume a majority rule for now but by next season we should all be able to tack.

rounding the mark will always be an issue, its just the spot where all the carnage happens and also where races are won and lost..but i agree with perrins in high, out low rule so atleast everyone will have predictable kite behaviour, that should make things a lot easier and smoother.

courses involving soft sand are buggies only UNLESS the soft section is all downwind and the upwind bit on hard sand, i think this thoery will work a treat,open to everyone,and a hel of a lot of fun as even less expirienced rider will have a ball bonking throught the dunes on a downwinder...and everyone can go upwind on the hard and everyone should be able to make the marks...cool fun, enduro crosscountry...now to find a beach with a hardsand ringroad